Tom Miller on Growing Big by Starting Small

Tom Miller, founder of Email for Experts, shares his journey of transitioning from creating info products for a broad audience to niching down and focusing on helping a small group of people solve a very specific problem.

Connect with Tom on LinkedIn or email him at [email protected].

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Episode Transcript

Ep. 7: Tom Miller on Growing Big by Starting Small

Tom: You're feeling like you're putting out something beyond just sort of a mechanical transaction with your market. It has the sort of positive halo effects if you can make that initial commitment and get the engine started and I think starting small and getting that initial feedback going is really an important part of it. That's really, I think something that people overlook in the desire to build something big is a lot of the small details matter at the very beginning.

Josiah: That was Tom Miller, founder of Email for Experts where he helps specialize consulting firms create more high value clients with expertise driven marketing. In this episode, Tom shares his journey of transitioning from creating info products for a broad audience to niching down and focusing on helping a small group of people solve a very specific problem. What I love about this story is it shows how having a small audience of the right people is often much better than having a large audience of the wrong people. So this is an especially great episode if you're just starting out with building your audience or you're looking to grow your existing audience on a new platform. I'm excited to share this with you. So let's jump in.

Announcer: You're listening to the Content Heroes podcast where entrepreneurs, marketers, and creatives share how they build profitable businesses on their own terms by creating content online. And now your host, Josiah Goff.

Josiah: Hey everyone, this is Content Heroes and I am here with Tom Miller, who is the founder of Email for Experts. Tom, thanks so much for being on the show today.

Tom: Thanks Josiah. I'm pumped up to talk to you about some content and get into, hopefully some interesting stuff that people haven't heard before.

Josiah: Yeah, great. So why don't you tell us a little bit about your origin story and how you got into content creation?

Tom: I am kind of an outside entrant into the marketing world. So I spent my first five or six years outside of college in the manufacturing industry working for a company that produced products for the automotive industry. I think I have kind of an outside perspective that maybe people who came from sort of the agency world or otherwise don't have in terms of content creation and digital marketing. And so I kind of backed my way into it through tutoring. So I was working as an engineer, I was tutoring engineering students and then I discovered the world of information products, Ramit Sethi, create a course, create a website. So I went down that road and actually my first kind of mini business marketing project was a site built around study skills for engineering students, physics students, math students. And so that was my training wheels into marketing was learning through creating that site. And through that process I kind of discovered, okay this is one little corner of the marketing universe, but there are actually all these other businesses out here that have kind of a real business model and have marketing problems. I started getting here and there engagements through kind of personal connections that I had met through learning that process. And then the kind of business that I'm running right now evolved out of slowly discovering where I could add value into the marketing process for people who run those types of businesses.

Josiah: Great. So when you got started, were you kind of doing it on the side and then how long did it take for you to transition over to full-time?

Tom: What I ended up doing was after about a year working on that initial website project on the side, and actually it's still up, phyzzle.com - P- H-Y-Z-Z-L-E, if you want to see an example of a discarded information products website. Actually I get a ping a couple of times a month of people who are still buying something from there, but it's pretty much a wasteland at this point. After about a year or two working on that on the side, I just realized that I did not have the focus and dedication to put out the consistent content around that topic area that was necessary in order to build the volume to make that a viable business model. So at the time I had a couple of friends who ran similar type of information products, businesses aimed at students or parents of students, marketing, chemistry products, math products, things of that nature. And they've spent five to seven years of weekend, week out of producing content, promoting that content, building out products and eBooks and things of that nature. And I just knew that I did not, to put it bluntly, I just did not care enough about that solving that particular problem in order to just stick with it for that long. That was the point in which I had a couple of feelers out there of other people who wanted help with this stuff. So I did a few small gigs here and there to sort of prove out like, can I actually do this for other people? And that was all at the same time where I was working my engineering job. Moved the family, we originally grew up in Maryland, moved down to Nashville area. I took another engineering job and then it was at that point that I realized, okay, like I have kind of a decision to make. Do I want to go deep on this sort of traditional engineering career track and go the corporate route or do I want to try something different and see where it leads me. And so that led me to getting more serious about actually going out and finding clients for me to help with their marketing. And then it was about six months of doing both at the same time before I kind of felt I had enough confidence to make that shift at that point in time.

Josiah: That's great. So for everyone listening, Tom and I connected a few years back because we both had a similar journey of, we had one small kid, one on the way and we just left our jobs to start our own businesses. And we were both featured in the same freelancing blog. And it's funny, I reached out to him saying, Hey it looks like we have a similar background, we should connect. And he said, Hey, I sent you a message through your form a week ago on your website. But I never got it cause my form was broken and I built websites for a living. So, that was a hilarious initial encounter on many levels. Let's just put it that way. Tom, what is your business look like now? 'Cause I know it's kind of evolved quite a bit over the last year or two.

Tom: Yeah, so actually when we first came into contact, I think at that point in time, a large portion of both of our businesses, we were working through Upwork, leveraging that marketplace to find clients and working it from that angle. And so at that point in time I was essentially a email marketing content marketing generalist where basically any business that had a digital presence, a desire to build an email list to market to that email list to sell. I didn't really go much the products route, mostly services, but there was really no focus to it. So I kind of hit it a ceiling where I was charging, I think pretty decent hourly rate at that point. But it was just me. I didn't have any particular specialty and I was sort of looking ahead in the horizon and looking for that next move. Where am I going to focus my efforts? How can I actually build something that is more scalable than just taking that next gig? And so that led me down the route of specialization. There's actually a guy, Philip Morgan, who specifically helps agencies, technical firms, figure out the answer to this problem, which is: what is the particular demographic of client that you are best tuned to serve that has market opportunity, has the ability and the willingness to pay where if you solve a meaningful problem for them, you can charge significantly higher rates than you would for just solving that general problem? And so I spent the next probably, and I'm still doing that now. I'm still working with Philip now, but it's been about a year and a half journey of continually refining what that looks like and it's sort of the initial kernel of what I realized was I was best at helping experts in a particular domain, in a particular niche, take that knowledge out of their head, turn it into content, and then leverage that content in order to bring potential clients into their ecosystem and then nurture those clients along through the marketing and sales process to very large either consulting or agency related engagements. And so that's what I've landed on now. So Email for Experts, the concept behind it is we are using content, particularly expertise content, so content that is very specific to either demographic or an industry vertical and then we're using that to feed into that process. So I help specialized consulting firms, specialized agencies build out sort of that content marketing platform, that email platform in order to enable that. What I do now is work with a very select group of clients who are sort of perfectly tuned for making this process work really well. But for the ones who are tuned for it, it's definitely a winning formula at least at this point in time.

Josiah: Awesome. So that's been a great journey there, Tom. I'm really curious, you started out sort of in this more general audience, mass information product world, and then you, over time have sort of niched down to a very specific, very tailored audience doing something very niche, very specific. I'm really curious why you decided to move in that direction and what that process looked like for you?

Tom: Yeah. I think what was interesting was when I first got serious about taking on marketing clients, one of the first clients that I hooked up with and actually on the website emailforexperts.com it's the first case study that's listed on the site was a guy who perfectly fit sort of the Ramit Sethi information products model. He had been creating content for five years, dah, dah, dah. He had all of these kind of building blocks in place where I could come in and help him put a few things into place. Email list started growing very rapidly and then he already had sort of a library of product, so he was well known in the industry for specific publication. He sold that book and then a set of additional books that went along with that. He already had sort of like a training program where he would go and train professionals in his field. A lot of the kind of prerequisites were in place. And so going in and implementing sort of that model where you already have a lot of organic traffic coming to your site, it's very targeted traffic. You own the top spot for all of the important keywords in your industry. Those were already in place. And so somebody like me coming in made a lot of sense and I could kinda just go down the checklist of optimizing the site for opt-ins, building out some email sequences and funnels. Working on product launches, things of that nature. But after that I ran into a number of additional clients who wanted to do those types of things but didn't have really any of those prerequisites in place. And so it was a bit of a struggle. It was kind of me learning that I needed to be a bit more selective about who I told I could help with this type of thing. And so in those particular scenarios, it wasn't necessarily a failure, but we had to really work hard to develop some workarounds that would actually work with their business model. I'll say for like every 10 engagements that I took on from that point forward, only one out of those 10 who were already in the bucket of realizing that they needed very specific type of marketing help in this sort of digital information products related field. Only one out of 10 actually had the prerequisites in place in order to make that work really well. So all of this is just to say that the large majority of businesses, both in the way that their business model is structured and in terms of the legwork that they've already done to build up that organic traffic and build up that sort of high volume exposure to their market, are very few and far between. And so the thing that was really bothering me about that is that there were all of these businesses that I actually think were more valuable to the marketplace, had a lot more to offer in terms of what they could deliver, but they just couldn't connect the dots between them and their audience. And so they're very much stuck in the cycle of just relying on the same client list that they've always relied on going out to their network to try to drum up new business. All the typical things that more reactive marketing where you've had some success, things aren't going quite as well or you're trying to grow, but you're struggling and so you're just kinda going back to the same old tricks and they're not working quite as well anymore. I wanted to work with those clients because just from me personally, like I mentioned sort of the engineering background, I'm a little bit obsessed with optimization and it really bothered me that there were these sort of businesses sending their primed to deliver their service to a particular market. They just couldn't do it because they didn't have the systems in place. They didn't have the competence in the marketing department to make that happen. And so that's what initially led me down that road of trying to figure out what are the kind of principles and methodologies that are more applicable to businesses that have a different model in particular, businesses that rely on a much lower volume but a much higher lifetime value of client. How do we get these same types of things that we know that work really well? Bringing an audience in through exposure to ideas, through content, and then nurturing those leads through the marketing process to get them to the point where when they get on that sales call, they already understand what the value that the business has to offer. They're more primed for the sales process. How do we get those things to work for these more typical types of business models that are relatively, I think underserved from a marketing perspective.

Josiah: That's great. When you're talking with these businesses, how do you start to flesh out a content strategy for them? What are the things that you're looking for? The pieces that you know, where they have the pieces that you can fit together? And then what are some of the pieces that get discarded or that don't work. What do you typically see when you're talking with these clients?

Tom: Kind of one of the initial things that I recognized was the businesses that this type of marketing is going to work for, have to at least have made some effort to try to make it work independently before bringing in an outside consultant or an agency or someone like that in. So the first external qualifier that I look for is basically a.) Do you have a high value service that you deliver to clients? And then you have evidence that you can deliver result over and over again? Because that sort of product market fit needs to be there. It has to be super solid in order to build a pathway to that, because we can do all the marketing work in the world to bring clients along the process. And then if they get to the point where they're on the sales call with you and you're talking about what you're going to do and it's not all that compelling or you're delivering the service and afterwards it's not satisfying the need and customer is unsatisfied. That's just a nonstarter from the get go. But the other piece of it is if they haven't tried, if they don't have a website up, if they haven't tried creating some content themselves, if they don't at least have sort of like a very rudimentary email list in place, then it's almost like you are having to educate and then also help. But the education piece of it, it takes way too long. By the time you get to the point where they understand what they should be doing, you're three months into the engagement and they're like, why hasn't anything happened yet? And then you just part ways and it never gets off the ground. So the thing that I think is meaningful is if they've tried it, they understand the mechanics of how it could work. So by setting up the website, they're thinking about what are we doing from a copywriting perspective? What building blocks do we need to have on the website? What information do we have to have about our services? When we're hooking up an email list, who is on this email list? What do we say to them? How do we get that person to then call us about our services? All of those questions are already kind of going through the minds of the founders of the business or the marketing department. They're kind of working through those problems. And primarily it's just a focus thing cause the majority of the businesses that I work with are the kind of principal and the consultants in the business are delivering the service and they're also marketing and selling the service. That just doesn't leave a lot of time for strategic thinking around marketing. But they have, they do understand what it needs to look like. And so at that point you can come in and say like, okay, here's sort of the diagnosis of you've done X, Y, and Z. It's not working because of this other thing over here or you just haven't spent enough time on it. Those are the people who are the most kind of primed for sort of a content marketing and email strategy to come in and get put in place and really have a meaningful impact within a fairly short period of time.

Josiah: That's awesome, Tom. What I find really interesting is you're looking for very specific type of client and really a specific transitionary phase. I'm curious how you have in your own business, set up a content strategy. What have you done to attract and nurture those clients and position yourself as an authority, as an expert, as someone that can help them?

Tom: I think this is the question that most if not all digital agencies struggle with, which is like the shoemaker's children shoes problem and I was certainly in that boat where you know I had done the initial work of figuring this stuff out for myself with that initial website. But beyond that I was basically leveraging network freelancing platform to acquire clients, but I had no independence proof of concept in my own business that this stuff actually works. And that was constantly sort of tickling in the back of my mind. And so when I started to go down the route of figuring out how am I going to specialize my business, that is the point in time in which I really made an effort to think out my own marketing strategy and how I wanted to acquire clients. The nice thing about the consulting and agency world is that you're working with firms that are almost selling that same type of service that you're selling. So like I'm helping them through marketing consulting and sort of marketing services. They are helping their clients with, you know, a million different types of things. But it is still consulting. It is still sort of implementation services that an agency would deliver. And so there is something to be said for you know, modeling what that strategy should look like. So when people come into contact with you, they are already starting to see how this stuff can work in practice. And so I really put this into full effect in the beginning of this year, but I had sort of been formulating the strategy in the back of my mind ahead of that. And so how it started off was, you know, the email list route back to sort of the original discussion about most people don't have this massive organic audience and this traffic sitting here just waiting to be converted into email subscribers. I was certainly in that boat as well. And so I went down the road of really building out a network, particularly on LinkedIn. Also through you know, personal connections that I had, you know, reaching out and anybody who knew a specialized consulting founder or an agency owner starting out with the interviews. So I wasn't, thankfully I was at the point where I had enough of a client portfolio that I didn't necessarily need to, this sort of new marketing channel that I wanted to develop, I didn't need to leverage that right off the bat to generate clients. That's actually a kind of recommendation that I use with my clients that I work with now, which is when you're first developing sort of a content strategy and starting to market through content, there is a period there were, it is valuable to be able to be generous and give away things without expectation of return in order to build trust, build the audience, learn. And that's exactly what I was doing. So I was reaching out to people cold who fit my sort of demographic of, you know, less than 10 people consulting firm or agency reaching out through LinkedIn, asking for an initial interview just so I could learn about their business. And I just repeated that process over and over again. So it gave me a very good idea of what I should be focusing my service around in order to solve the problems that they were articulating during those interviews. But at the same time, the natural, next thing that comes up is if you're relatively interesting and that conversation they ask, okay, what are you up to? What other things do you have to offer? And at that point is where I started to build that initial email list and it was really hand to hand combat, one by one getting people interested in what I was doing, but at the same time you also have to have content that is available for them to take a look at. So kind of in parallel with that, I started down the route, and this is a another brainchild of Philip Morgan who I mentioned before. He actually has a specific methodology and a group built around this concept. He calls it the expertise incubator. Essentially what it is is rapid development of expertise and an understanding of what your firm does, what your market is through publishing content. And so it's a bit of a trial by fire because the frequency that I landed on was daily, so there are probably a lot of people who are listening right now where they just freaked out and like drove the car off the road or something. But the idea behind it is if you are spending 30 minutes, an hour, however long it takes to put out at least one semi-formulated thought that you think would be valuable to your audience on a daily basis and then emailing that to them, you quickly a.) Start to clarify your own thinking about the topic and start to develop some ideas. I think the big problem that a lot of firms have with producing content is they're already thinking like they have to have this super polished framework, these amazing ideas that they're putting out. A monthly frequency almost automatically produces that type of feeling like, Oh my God, we're only publishing once a month. We have to like make it the most amazing thing we've ever written. Whereas if you're publishing daily, you're just basically spitting out whatever's on the top of your head. You were finding it a little bit, you're making it so that it's consumable and valuable. But at the same time, you know, if you have 300, you know, however many, you know, I was doing it five days a week, however many at bats that you have, 250 a year, it matters less and less if one of those is kind of crappy or doesn't hit right. And so I really did that. Or I'll say I did that for two months before it really started to get traction. And when I say traction, this is a very small list. So right now I think my list is like 135 subscribers, something like that. But every single subscriber on that list is sort of hand cultivated exactly the target audience that I want to be speaking to. And so after that sort of initial two month period where I was publishing to crickets, people started responding, we started having meaningful conversations. I had a number of leads come out of that, a few of those turned into clients. And so that was sort of the early process of getting that content engine up and running. Once I had that into place, then it was a very natural extension for me to continue that publishing process and kind of work it into my daily schedule, get up first thing in the morning, right a little bit, hit send on the email list, maybe that produces one or two calls that week with people that I want to be speaking to and then just rinse and repeat. So reach out to more people on LinkedIn. Now I have more content that I can share with them and say, Hey, are you interested in talking about this? And then the virtuous cycle takes off from there. So that was how I kind of kickstarted the engine and it actually is a process that I actually ran a workshop with Philip on this about second quarter of this year. It's a process that works surprisingly well for particularly solos or small firms who really do not have marketing spend resources, things of that nature. You can leverage sort of that interview process, the content publication and everything like that. To get that initial traction.

Josiah: What I love about that is what you hit on, I mean your list is, it sounds like a small number for an email list, so you said like 135 or something like that. The difference though is like I feel like a lot of times content creators get caught up in these vanity numbers, right? You hear people talk about that a lot. I've seen it in my own case, too, and then talking with clients as well. But would you rather be blasting out 10,000 people and you know, only a half of a percent of them actually care about what you're saying? Or would you rather be like targeting a hundred people who are absolutely engaged and the people who you want to talk with. And even though that by comparison, the 135 doesn't sound very big next to the 10,000, I love what Pat Flynn talks about a lot and this has helped me too, as I'm starting a podcast and looking at the numbers and we've had a really great start, but when you're starting from scratch for the first several months, probably, not a lot of people are listening. If you think about them as actual people rather than numbers, how much would you pay to step up in a room of 135 of your exact target customer and be able to have like a personal connection with them? That's invaluable. So it really is a good testament to this concept of, especially when you're just starting out, you don't need a huge list. You just need to make sure that you're finding the right people.

Tom: It also just feels a lot better, too. If you go the route of acquiring a list or like running ads to a landing page and they're opting in and then you're trying to market to those people, it's like it really is just numbers on a page and then you're kind of publishing stuff into the abyss and then maybe you get lucky and something comes back when you really put in the time to cultivate a list of people where you know, like I can open up my Active Campaign and look at the list of contacts and I actually remember who each of those individual people are. Then there's like a real person, people reply to stuff. You can have a real conversation and this is now like my sort of qualification process has evolved a lot and one of the things that I've added into that process is just personal desire for getting your ideas out there and having conversations with your market. I think a lot of times we also underestimate the emotional component of this, too, which is it takes some courage to like put stuff out there. Especially now, like when you publish something on the internet, it's there forever. Aliens and 10,000 years they're going to be reading your, Josiah, they're going to be reading your blog posts. There is some courage involved in that. You feel a bit vulnerable and where a lot of these things fizzle out is when you start the process and you don't have good initial traction, people aren't responding to what you're putting out there. Even if the philosophy and the concepts are sound that you know it's going to work eventually, that'll just kill it right out. Especially if you are the only content creator in your company. So anyway, that's an interesting realization that's come out of this process too is by going through this yourself, you realize like what everyone else is thinking about as they're doing this and you can start to really understand why. Like there are so many sites out there with like three blog posts from 2015 and you just wonder like why are they not taking advantage of this? And it's exactly that. It's really the emotional component of it that comes into play.

Josiah: Yeah, I've definitely found that really the only thing that's holding us back is all the stories we tell ourselves in our heads. That kept me from starting a podcast for a long time and when I finally committed and said, look, I'm doing this. I don't know what it's going to look like yet, but this is happening. And then it all just sort of fell into place and I realized like all those stories they were just made up. They're just made up nonsense that I told myself.

Tom: Yeah, and even before we started recording, you're telling me how like now that you've actually committed, you have a process in place, you know that these things are going to get published and go out. You're realizing how much you actually like producing content. You have ideas to contribute. All these sorts of things start to happen that not only are you building trust with a particular audience who may be a good fit for your business, you're also developing your own ideas. You're feeling like you're putting out something beyond just a sort of a mechanical transaction with your market. It has these sort of positive halo effects. If you can make that initial commitment and get the engine started, and I think starting small and getting that initial feedback going is really an important part of it. That's really, I think, something that people overlook in the desire to build something big is a lot of the small details matter at the very beginning.

Josiah: Yeah, absolutely. This is great stuff, Tom. I'm really curious now that you been working with clients for a few years and you've dug into multiple businesses and help them with their content, their email marketing. What would you say would be some of the biggest takeaways or the biggest quick win you could share with the content heroes audience? Whether they're just getting started or they're in that kind of phase where they have some traction and they're trying to figure out how to grow it and scale it. What are some of the things that you found make the biggest impact in the shortest amount of time?

Tom: Yeah, and I'll speak specifically to individuals who are running a business that you don't need a high volume of clients in order to be successful, but you just need to get in contact with the right clients. This goes back to what we had just been talking about, which is the first thing that I think most people need to get clear on is sort of your ideal list of like that a hundred people who you would want to have on your email list. How can you get in contact with those people to get the process started. So you no doubt if you have a business that you're already serving clients, you're delivering results, you already have the expertise, you already have the ideas in your head in terms of how you can solve their problems. And the process of articulating those ideas into an email form is almost secondary to identifying who you want to speak to. Because if you're just trying to speak to businesses who can benefit from my services, that's also a nonstarter. So the first thing that I would do is go on LinkedIn. If you don't have it already, sign up for Sales Navigator, you can get one month for free if you haven't signed up already yet. If you already have signed up, it's only 90 bucks a month, it's totally worth it because you can filter by demographics, you can filter by industry, you can filter by roles, companies. Just play around in sales navigator and look at like, okay, if I had my pick, who would those a hundred people on my email list be that I would want to get in contact with and start to refine who that is. There are two typical ways in which this generally shakes out that I think are most meaningful. One is by industry verticals, so I speak to CMOs at manufacturing companies or I help sort of lawyers of firms of 20 people or more, you know, whatever that industry is that you serve. That's one way of doing it, which is very powerful. The other way that's very powerful is solving a very specific problem for sort of a wide array of different industries. Kind of like what you do, Josiah. I help high volume websites build out a content strategy in order to drive more business. So that high volume website piece may be a little bit more difficult to find within LinkedIn Sales Navigator, but there are some creative ways in which you might go about doing that. I actually have entire video sort of mapping out the whole process that I use on LinkedIn to identify that audience. I can send you the link after the call. I think I call it like my early LinkedIn lead generation something. I'll get you the link that could be valuable. That would kind of be the first step is to really identify who that target audience is. Then you can start identifying who within your personal network, do you know who fits that demographic, and then also who on LinkedIn could I send a nice personal note out to just asking to have a conversation. Maybe they're interested in reading my content or jumping on my email list, but at least a starting point to get that process started. That's kind of the kickstarter from the audience side. Then the kickstarter from your internal side is first just carving out the time. If you don't have time blocked out on your schedule for content, it's never going to happen. So the best way that I've found to do this is it has to happen before the day starts. Especially if you have lots of clients. If you are kind from the moment you start the day, you're just like grinding to the end of the day. Whenever I've tried to write or come up with ideas in the middle of the day, they're just horrible, like awful ideas. Just regurgitating the worst of the worst advice that I've ever heard anybody give anybody. But if you wake up in the morning, if you have kids, get up before the kids are up, have a cup of coffee, sit down. And if you're a writer, just sit down that sort of blank Google doc, spit out some ideas, just write continuously for like 20 minutes and see what comes out. If you hate writing, just grab the little voice memo app on your iPhone and then you can send it to transcription afterwards and just extract the copy out of that. But make that time for yourself first thing in the morning to get that done. That's the first step. The second step is then figuring out how to translate that into something that you can publish. I would recommend daily is not right for everybody. If you're super aggressive and you want to give it a shot, by all means, but if you just start with, come up with some ideas every morning for a week, and then at the end of that week, I want to turn that into one 500 word email that I could send out to this list. Get a backlog going in a Google document of say five or six emails that you would send out to people related to that audience that you've identified. Then it's just a matter of connecting the dots. So when you feel like you've had enough conversations with people who might want to hear from you and you've also accumulated enough of a content backlog that you'd feel comfortable starting to publish something, then it's just a matter of making that final ask of bringing that audience onto that email list during the software thing and getting all that set up. I'm not going to go into that all that's out there on the internet, but actually sending that content. Then if those two things connect, it's just a matter of keeping the consistency there. So those are the two key starting points. And actually for the second starting point, I think I have set up post called like how to start a newsletter that walks through the whole process of figuring out where to pull that email list from and what to publish first and all that stuff. So I'll give you that link as well. But that's really what I would recommend to get it kickstarted. So you bring the audience side, you bring the content side and then bring those together. That's the biggest hurdle because once that's up and running, then you can start to figure out, okay, what is the actual marketing strategy to connect to this audience, to our service offering and get the sales calls going and everything like that. It becomes much easier to talk about that step once the initial hurdle is tackled right off the bat.

Josiah: Yeah, totally. It's much easier to steer a moving ship than on it sitting still.

Tom: Totally, totally. You get all these like crazy theories in your head of like what is actually possible before you see the tangible result. And then when you see that, I've been working on this for three weeks, then 10 people were interested you adjust your expectations a little bit and do something that's a bit more realistic.

Josiah: Awesome. Tom, this has been great. I really appreciate you being on the show. Before we sign off here, can you just tell everyone where they can find you online?

Tom: Yeah. You can just go to emailforexperts.com, everything's there on the home page. There are some good case studies of this stuff in action that I think might be informative for people. I have an email list. Like I mentioned, I spent the majority of this year during daily. I've backed off of that a little bit as the client engagements have increased. I haven't totally solved that problem for myself yet, but if you go to emailforexperts.com/email you can get on that. I publish all my best ideas. There's an archive of everything I've published this year. I'm not sure if you've really wanted to sort through all of it. That's the daily process. Some of my crappy stuff went out there too, but I think it could be valuable for people, so check it out. Hopefully it's helpful.

Josiah: Hey everyone, thank you for listening to the Content Heroes podcast. I just wanted to take a second and let you know that we have some amazing guests plan for the coming weeks. So if you haven't already, go ahead and hit subscribe so you can make sure to catch every episode. And if you enjoyed today's episode, go ahead and leave a five star review to help make it easier for other content creators to find and enjoy the show. Lastly, I'd like to invite you to join our Content Heroes Facebook community where you can connect with other online content creators to share, learn, grow, and have fun. To join the group, just visit contentheroes.com/facebook. Once again, that is contentheroes.com/facebook.

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